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Beerus vs ?
Topic Started: Jul 30 2014, 09:39 PM (5,327 Views)
+ Yusuke
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Pyrus
Jul 31 2014, 07:33 PM
I'm too much of a TL:DR person.

Mind explaining to me what's explained there? Thanks.
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Urameshi
Aug 1 2014, 10:58 PM
Pyrus
Jul 31 2014, 07:33 PM
I'm too much of a TL:DR person.

Mind explaining to me what's explained there? Thanks.
People were doubting Beerus was stronger than Gohan-Boo so I annihilated them with every statement from Toriyama and BOG promotional material that proves otherwise.
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I see.

And I guess that would include SSJ/SSJ3 Vegetto as well if Beerus is truly stronger than everything in DBZ (prior to BoG).
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

TConnor_Demonic
Jul 31 2014, 05:04 PM
It's conjecture man, simple as that. Unless you're suggesting Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG. Besides that, trying to apply Gods of Creation as a no-limit thing is a fallacy. If there were no limit he'd of been able to create an anti-boo that could atomise Boo upon contact.

The problem here is that the bold part is exactly what happened with AT.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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Goddess Ultimecia
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Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:42 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 31 2014, 05:04 PM
It's conjecture man, simple as that. Unless you're suggesting Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG. Besides that, trying to apply Gods of Creation as a no-limit thing is a fallacy. If there were no limit he'd of been able to create an anti-boo that could atomise Boo upon contact.

The problem here is that the bold part is exactly what happened with AT.
Can I see where? Kaioshin and Elder Kai would have been Gods of Creation at birth or conception.
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Aug 2 2014, 11:45 AM.
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:44 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:42 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 31 2014, 05:04 PM
It's conjecture man, simple as that. Unless you're suggesting Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG. Besides that, trying to apply Gods of Creation as a no-limit thing is a fallacy. If there were no limit he'd of been able to create an anti-boo that could atomise Boo upon contact.

The problem here is that the bold part is exactly what happened with AT.
Can I see where? Kaioshin and Elder Kai would have been Gods of Creation at birth or whatever since they come from a tree.


I mean that in AT's mind back then in Boo saga there was not such God of creation/God of distruction BS: Kaioshins were merely the strongest of Gods, nothing more.
Only with BoG AT came up with destruction/creation et similia, so, technically yes, Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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Never argue with ignorant people, because they drag you down to their level and then they beat you with experience
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Goddess Ultimecia
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Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:48 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:44 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:42 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 31 2014, 05:04 PM
It's conjecture man, simple as that. Unless you're suggesting Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG. Besides that, trying to apply Gods of Creation as a no-limit thing is a fallacy. If there were no limit he'd of been able to create an anti-boo that could atomise Boo upon contact.

The problem here is that the bold part is exactly what happened with AT.
Can I see where? Kaioshin and Elder Kai would have been Gods of Creation at birth or whatever since they come from a tree.


I mean that in AT's mind back then in Boo saga there was not such God of creation/God of distruction BS: Kaioshins were merely the strongest of Gods, nothing more.
Only with BoG AT came up with destruction/creation et similia, so, technically yes, Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG.
That's an out of universe explanation, in universe that barely holds any ground. Since in-universe he would've been a God of Creation right off of the tree. ESPECIALLY since AT has made so many statements about this being a direct continuation of the manga's story.
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Aug 2 2014, 12:21 PM.
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Dankness Lava
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Dankness Forever

TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:50 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:48 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:44 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:42 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 31 2014, 05:04 PM
It's conjecture man, simple as that. Unless you're suggesting Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG. Besides that, trying to apply Gods of Creation as a no-limit thing is a fallacy. If there were no limit he'd of been able to create an anti-boo that could atomise Boo upon contact.

The problem here is that the bold part is exactly what happened with AT.
Can I see where? Kaioshin and Elder Kai would have been Gods of Creation at birth or whatever since they come from a tree.


I mean that in AT's mind back then in Boo saga there was not such God of creation/God of distruction BS: Kaioshins were merely the strongest of Gods, nothing more.
Only with BoG AT came up with destruction/creation et similia, so, technically yes, Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG.
That's an out of universe explanation, in universe that barely holds any ground. Since in-universe he would've been a God of Creation right off of the tree. ESPECIALLY since AT has made so many statements about this being a direct continuation of the manga's story.
Well hey, Goku was a human until DBZ and Raditz, couldn't this work the same way?
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Goddess Ultimecia
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Ben-Dan The Man
Aug 2 2014, 01:23 PM
TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:50 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:48 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:44 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:42 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 31 2014, 05:04 PM
It's conjecture man, simple as that. Unless you're suggesting Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG. Besides that, trying to apply Gods of Creation as a no-limit thing is a fallacy. If there were no limit he'd of been able to create an anti-boo that could atomise Boo upon contact.

The problem here is that the bold part is exactly what happened with AT.
Can I see where? Kaioshin and Elder Kai would have been Gods of Creation at birth or whatever since they come from a tree.


I mean that in AT's mind back then in Boo saga there was not such God of creation/God of distruction BS: Kaioshins were merely the strongest of Gods, nothing more.
Only with BoG AT came up with destruction/creation et similia, so, technically yes, Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG.
That's an out of universe explanation, in universe that barely holds any ground. Since in-universe he would've been a God of Creation right off of the tree. ESPECIALLY since AT has made so many statements about this being a direct continuation of the manga's story.
Well hey, Goku was a human until DBZ and Raditz, couldn't this work the same way?
I see no need for it, everything works perfectly fine. Besides, the underlying issue here is Kaioshin goes from not being able to create legitimate copies to "supposedly" making legitimate copies. Copping out and saying God of Creation is simply that, a copout. And it involves putting in a no limits fallacy, which Kaioshin has showed he has limits. The issue comes in when people wish to ignore what was vividly shown and stated even though the occurence in BoG can easily be explained along with YSGAFR. It's just some people are a tad too simple minded.
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Aug 2 2014, 01:54 PM.
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:50 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:48 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:44 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:42 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 31 2014, 05:04 PM
It's conjecture man, simple as that. Unless you're suggesting Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG. Besides that, trying to apply Gods of Creation as a no-limit thing is a fallacy. If there were no limit he'd of been able to create an anti-boo that could atomise Boo upon contact.

The problem here is that the bold part is exactly what happened with AT.
Can I see where? Kaioshin and Elder Kai would have been Gods of Creation at birth or whatever since they come from a tree.


I mean that in AT's mind back then in Boo saga there was not such God of creation/God of distruction BS: Kaioshins were merely the strongest of Gods, nothing more.
Only with BoG AT came up with destruction/creation et similia, so, technically yes, Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG.
That's an out of universe explanation, in universe that barely holds any ground. Since in-universe he would've been a God of Creation right off of the tree. ESPECIALLY since AT has made so many statements about this being a direct continuation of the manga's story.


But I agree with you on this: from an in-universe point of view, now we know that Kaioshin has always been a God of creation because AT ret-connected the story, but on a technical point of view, it is also true that, during Boo saga, Kaioshin was not a God of creation.
It's just what I wanted to say on the argument, really.
Finally, regarding Potaras, I don't enter the debate, since what probably happened is that AT simply put them on Kaioshins, witthout giving a damn thing to the fact that, almost 20 years ago, in the manga it was stated that the ones destroyed by Goku and Vegeta were the last pair; I mean, this is the same guy who wasn't able to discern Ssj2 from Ssj3 and who didn't even remember that Gohan has a freaking Ultimate form...
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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Never argue with ignorant people, because they drag you down to their level and then they beat you with experience
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Goddess Ultimecia
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Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 01:54 PM
TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:50 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:48 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:44 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:42 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 31 2014, 05:04 PM
It's conjecture man, simple as that. Unless you're suggesting Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG. Besides that, trying to apply Gods of Creation as a no-limit thing is a fallacy. If there were no limit he'd of been able to create an anti-boo that could atomise Boo upon contact.

The problem here is that the bold part is exactly what happened with AT.
Can I see where? Kaioshin and Elder Kai would have been Gods of Creation at birth or whatever since they come from a tree.


I mean that in AT's mind back then in Boo saga there was not such God of creation/God of distruction BS: Kaioshins were merely the strongest of Gods, nothing more.
Only with BoG AT came up with destruction/creation et similia, so, technically yes, Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG.
That's an out of universe explanation, in universe that barely holds any ground. Since in-universe he would've been a God of Creation right off of the tree. ESPECIALLY since AT has made so many statements about this being a direct continuation of the manga's story.


But I agree with you on this: from an in-universe point of view, now we know that Kaioshin has always been a God of creation because AT ret-connected the story, but on a technical point of view, it is also true that, during Boo saga, Kaioshin was not a God of creation.
It's just what I wanted to say on the argument, really.
Finally, regarding Potaras, I don't enter the debate, since what probably happened is that AT simply put them on Kaioshins, witthout giving a damn thing to the fact that, almost 20 years ago, in the manga it was stated that the ones destroyed by Goku and Vegeta were the last pair; I mean, this is the same guy who wasn't able to discern Ssj2 from Ssj3 and who didn't even remember that Gohan has a freaking Ultimate form...
I'll agree with you on that, some supposed BoG "problems" can be explained away but some just can't. Gohan powered up as a SSJ after the Ultimate ritual and his appearance didn't change whatsoever except add some electricity and make Goku say he has tremendous power and that he didn't look like a SSJ, however in BOG Gohan turns into a SSJ it's just meh...
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 01:58 PM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 01:54 PM
TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:50 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:48 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 11:44 AM
Sjk8
Aug 2 2014, 11:42 AM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 31 2014, 05:04 PM
It's conjecture man, simple as that. Unless you're suggesting Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG. Besides that, trying to apply Gods of Creation as a no-limit thing is a fallacy. If there were no limit he'd of been able to create an anti-boo that could atomise Boo upon contact.

The problem here is that the bold part is exactly what happened with AT.
Can I see where? Kaioshin and Elder Kai would have been Gods of Creation at birth or whatever since they come from a tree.


I mean that in AT's mind back then in Boo saga there was not such God of creation/God of distruction BS: Kaioshins were merely the strongest of Gods, nothing more.
Only with BoG AT came up with destruction/creation et similia, so, technically yes, Kaioshin went from NOT being a God of Creation to suddenly being imbued with the power between Boo and BoG.
That's an out of universe explanation, in universe that barely holds any ground. Since in-universe he would've been a God of Creation right off of the tree. ESPECIALLY since AT has made so many statements about this being a direct continuation of the manga's story.


But I agree with you on this: from an in-universe point of view, now we know that Kaioshin has always been a God of creation because AT ret-connected the story, but on a technical point of view, it is also true that, during Boo saga, Kaioshin was not a God of creation.
It's just what I wanted to say on the argument, really.
Finally, regarding Potaras, I don't enter the debate, since what probably happened is that AT simply put them on Kaioshins, witthout giving a damn thing to the fact that, almost 20 years ago, in the manga it was stated that the ones destroyed by Goku and Vegeta were the last pair; I mean, this is the same guy who wasn't able to discern Ssj2 from Ssj3 and who didn't even remember that Gohan has a freaking Ultimate form...
I'll agree with you on that, some supposed BoG "problems" can be explained away but some just can't. Gohan powered up as a SSJ after the Ultimate ritual and his appearance didn't change whatsoever except add some electricity and make Goku say he has tremendous power and that he didn't look like a SSJ, however in BOG Gohan turns into a SSJ it's just meh...


You know, Gohan becoming Ssj for the ritual is awkward yes, but ultimately not that bad: you can see it in the way that, when he fights, he goes somehow strictly to his Ultimate form, which gives him a power so unholy that any kind of Ssj transformation couldn't even dream of, but still he is capable of going Ssj, and being Ssj was apparently made an essential condition for the God ritual.
Indeed, with my previous post I was referring to the pre-release scenes, when Gohan turned Ssj in order to face Beers: it was necessary that people from outside told AT and his crew that Gohan possesses a damn Ultimate form, since they even forgot about that.
So just imagine how much importance they gave to the Potaras question...
Edited by Sjk8, Aug 2 2014, 02:06 PM.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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Goddess Ultimecia
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That seems a tad too elaborate for my tastes but meh, I personally haven't seen the released version yet. So, your explanation could be right. However, unlike the entire SSJ deal the potarras don't seem to have that freedom that your SSJ Gohan-Ultimate Gohan theory has. Potarras are a Black and White thing, either a Yes or a No as to the legitimacy to them. Personally, after everything that was stated in the manga I can't accept that the Potarras are legitimate copies in BoG. Contradicts too much without anything being stated of the sort as to why they're there or the legitimacy of them. We see Kibito make Potarras or Potarra-like earrings on Gohan but if it were so simple to whip a legitimate copy, then Kaioshin after fusing with Kibito shouldn't of freaked out. Which opens the possibility that the potarras we see post manga aren't legitimate copies.

Not sure if I made that comprehensible xD
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Sjk8
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TConnor_Demonic
Aug 2 2014, 02:16 PM
That seems a tad too elaborate for my tastes but meh, I personally haven't seen the released version yet. So, your explanation could be right. However, unlike the entire SSJ deal the potarras don't seem to have that freedom that your SSJ Gohan-Ultimate Gohan theory has. Potarras are a Black and White thing, either a Yes or a No as to the legitimacy to them. Personally, after everything that was stated in the manga I can't accept that the Potarras are legitimate copies in BoG. Contradicts too much without anything being stated of the sort as to why they're there or the legitimacy of them. We see Kibito make Potarras or Potarra-like earrings on Gohan but if it were so simple to whip a legitimate copy, then Kaioshin after fusing with Kibito shouldn't of freaked out. Which opens the possibility that the potarras we see post manga aren't legitimate copies.

Not sure if I made that comprehensible xD


It's comprehensible and I totally agree, especially about the manga part.
Indeed, I see the manga more worthy than everything else since, when it was made, AT was totally and completely on it, in the sense that all DB story was fresh and straight n his mind: in fact, despite the fact that often people say the Boo saga is a bit messed up, what I personally believe is that everything in every part of the manga was in the right place, nothing was left to chance and all details fit together perfectly like pieces of a puzzle.
Sadly, the same can't be said regarding the last DB releases, such as BoG.
Also, my previous theory of Gohan is a simple way to make things have at least a little sense, but do you want to know how I believe things really went?

- AT and his crew: "oh, let's make all the fodders (i.e. everyone who is not Goku and, partially, Vegeta) facing Catman and getting ko'd" --> drawings of Gohan Ssj getting destroyed.
- Mad fans: "Da hell? Gohan is Mystic, can't be Ssj anymore! He is Ultimate!"
- AT and his crew: "yeah, we forgot about that; well, who cares, scenes are already done, let's just repaint his hair"

And that's why we have Ultimate Gohan getting one-shotted, Good Boo (who is thousands of times less powerful than him) putting up a much better fight than him against Beers and, finally, the same Gohan being a Ssj during the ritual.
Edited by Sjk8, Aug 2 2014, 03:35 PM.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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